Sales Manager (New Business Development)

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Permanent
  • Negotiable

Are you an experienced sales, business development or account management professional with a background in crane, transport, logistics, or heavy lifting?

Do you thrive on building strong client relationships and closing high-value deals? We want to hear from you.

About the Role

You’ll manage and grow sales business across the transport, construction, and industrial sectors-delivering tailored solutions and representing a global brand known for its world-class fleet and engineering expertise.

Your Responsibilities

  • Develop and maintain strong relationships with key clients.
  • Create customised solutions based on client needs.
  • Lead bid and proposal development for engineered transport projects.
  • Conduct on-site client meetings and deliver capability presentations.
  • Meet and exceed sales KPIs with clear and insightful reporting.
  • Represent the company at trade shows and industry events locally and internationally.

What You Bring

  • 3-5+ years in sales/business development in crane industry, transport, logistics, or heavy lifting.
  • Ability to read technical drawings and create strong proposals.
  • Deep knowledge of industry standards and competitors.
  • Proficiency in MS Office (Excel, Word, Outlook).
  • Excellent communication, negotiation, and contract closing skills.
  • Proactive, self-driven, and results-oriented mindset.
  • Flexibility to travel regionally and overseas.
  • Must hold current valid long term work rights in Australia.

What’s in It for You?

  • Competitive salary + commissions + fully equipped vehicle.
  • Join a supportive team that champions your success.
  • Flexibility with WFH and RDOs.

Interested?

If you have the relevant essential expertise listed above and are interested in this key role, please submit your updated CV by clicking the “APPLY NOW” button.

Please note: Due to the high volume of applications, only shortlisted candidates will be contacted for the next stage of recruitment processes.

For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further enquires please call Jasmine on 08 6212 5526 or email jasmine.ho@talentinternational.com

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Electrical Engineer with Power Systems & Network Constraints

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

We are urgently seeking a highly experienced Electrical Engineer with strong knowledge of network constraints, power system operations, and the Wholesale Electricity Market (WEM) to support state Government department’s Stage 2 review of Limit Advice and Constraint Equations in WA.

This unique opportunity involves a confidential and high-impact review of the procedures, governance, and methodologies of both Western Power and AEMO. You’ll be supporting the department in a first-of-its-kind review assessing alignment with the Wholesale Market Objectives, the State Electricity Objective, and best industry practice.

  • Immediate Start
  • 4 to 5 months temp contract

You will work independently under the State Government Department’s guidance to:

  • Analyse technical documentation from AEMO and Western Power
  • Evaluate risk mitigation frameworks and operational constraints
  • Conduct effectiveness reviews focusing on:
    • Thermal limits
    • Over-conservative and insecure constraint outcomes
    • Limit and Operating Margins
  • Contribute to drafting reports for public consultation and ERA’s final publication
  • Present technical findings to ERA’s Governing Body and, potentially, at public forums

Must have:

  • Extensive expertise in power system modelling, constraint formulation, and network limit assessments
  • Familiarity with the WEM, Limit Advice, and Constraint Equations
  • Proven ability to communicate complex technical findings to a non-technical audience
  • Demonstrated report writing skills suitable for public consultation and regulatory audiences
  • Ability to manage deliverables under tight timelines
  • Independence, critical thinking, and the ability to identify and justify further evidence or assumptions

Bonus:

  • Prior experience working with or reviewing procedures of AEMO or Western Power
  • Exposure to market regulation or inter-jurisdictional power system reviews

If you have the relevant experience and expertise listed above and are interested in finding out more about this key role, please forward your updated CV to Rekha Patil by clicking the “APPLY NOW” button.

For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further enquires please call Rekha on 08 6212 5500 or 0490 888 247.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Senior Systems Analyst - Finance ERP

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Permanent
  • Negotiable

This iconic WA company are a household name and brand; with a national footprint, they are delivering multiple Enterprise-wide projects with a desire to appoint an experienced Senior Finance Systems Analyst with ERP (Cloud) implementation experience to join their core team based here in Perth on a permanent full-time basis.

As a Senior Finance Systems Analyst, you will help to manage and optimise the TechnologyOne ERP and finance system to enhance accuracy, efficiency, and regulatory compliance, as well as to act as a key link between finance, IT and other business units in order to improve financial reporting, automation, and data integrity enterprise-wide.

Key Responsibilities will include (but not limited to):

  • Oversee month-end ERP processes and provide user support.
  • Administer and enhance financial systems, reports, and dashboards.
  • Collaborate on system improvements and process optimization.
  • Ensure system updates, quality assurance, and data integrity.
  • Design and manage effective reporting tools.
  • Identify opportunities for automation to enhance efficiency.
  • Provide training and support to end-users on financial systems.
  • Monitor system performance and troubleshoot issues promptly.
  • Support finance projects, including system upgrades and migrations.
  • Document processes and maintain up-to-date system procedures

You must demonstrate the following Skills & Experience:

  • Tertiary qualification in Finance, Accounting, Information Systems, or related field.
  • 3+ years demonstrated experience in a financial systems analysis role.
  • Prior experience in financial ERP (Cloud) implementation (I.e., TechnologyOne, Oracle, SAP, Pronto, Workday, NetSuite etc.)
  • Proficiency in Excel, XLOne, Crystal, or Power BI.
  • Excellent analytical and problem-solving skills.
  • Must have experience in system implementation, integration, and automation

Please note that only locally based Perth, WA candidates are being considered for this position, and you must also hold fully unrestricted working rights for Australia.

If you match the selection criteria above and are interested in finding out more about this key position, please forward your updated CV by clicking the “APPLY NOW” button.

For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further enquires please call Huma Irshad on 0418 594 901 or Huma.Irshad@talentinternational.com

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Senior Data & Integration Specialist

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Permanent
  • Negotiable

Senior Data & Integration Specialist required for a permanent opportunity based in Fremantle, Perth.

Role-

Reporting to the Projects & Business Systems Manager, this role provides specialist support in developing and implementing new and existing technologies and digital visualization capabilities. The role collaborates with business stakeholders to define and deliver how Fremantle Ports collects, stores, integrates, and represents data across platforms and systems.

Position responsibilities-

  • Planning and managing allocated systems analysis, development, and maintenance projects.
  • Designing and implementing integration solutions for the organization, as well as managing the existing integration platform to ensure they are current and meet business needs.
  • Participating in data conversion to ensure data consistency and integrity.
  • Liaising with system users and owners to provide advice on information technology options to address business requirements.
  • Creating informative, actionable, and repeatable reports that highlight relevant business trends and opportunities for improvement.
  • Developing and maintaining data assets and integrations, including data modelling, classification, development of business rules to support data quality and integrity, and integration with systems, analysis tools, and visualization tools.
  • Developing and maintaining data standards, integration playbooks, and roadmaps to meet the organization’s target state goals.

Required skills and experience-

  • Bachelor’s degree in Business Information Systems (IS), Computer Science, or a related field, or equivalent IT experience.
  • Extensive experience in data and integration analysis for complex and high-risk projects, with a strong commitment to business problem-solving.
  • Proficiency with the Microsoft Technology Stack, including Fabric, M365, Azure, SharePoint, SQL Server, and the Power Platform (PowerApps, Power Automate, and Power BI).
  • Report writing skills using Crystal Reports, Power BI, SQL Server scripting, or similar tools.
  • Ability to translate high-level business concepts into specific technical work plans for development teams.
  • Experience in designing and implementing integration solutions using tools such as Oracle Integration Cloud, Boomi, and Microsoft integration tools.
  • Experience in managing change in complex environments (desirable).
  • Well-developed conceptual, analytical and evaluation skills, strong problem-solving skills and attention to detail.
  • Excellent communication and interpersonal skills

If you have the skills and experience to excel in this role and are interested in finding out more about the position, please forward your updated CV by clicking the “APPLY NOW’ button For more information please call Alice Tan 0490 888 231 or Simon Prue on 0488 337 543. For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Complaint Management Coordinator

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Permanent
  • + 17% superannuation

Complaint Management Coordinator | Higher Education | G06

Join a key team supporting the intake, referral, reporting, and improvement of complaint management processes. Work across faculties, legal, and executive functions, contributing to compliance, data analytics, and system improvement projects.

What You’ll Do:

  • Receive, assess, and refer complaints per policy

  • Support complaint resolution at the lowest appropriate level

  • Prepare high-quality data, reports, and trend analysis

  • Administer conflict of interest and gifts registers

  • Liaise with external bodies including the WA Ombudsman

  • Support system upgrades and digital reporting platforms

  • Assist in policy review and training delivery

What We’re Looking For:

  • Relevant qualifications and/or equivalent experience

  • Strong interpersonal and written communication skills

  • Analytical and problem-solving abilities

  • Competent across Microsoft Office and digital systems

  • Experience with complaint handling or conflict management (desirable)

  • Ability to work autonomously and manage multiple priorities

Why Apply:

  • Contribute to a trusted and impactful internal function

  • Engage across a dynamic staff and student community

  • Support meaningful process and policy improvements

  • Enjoy higher education benefits and a collaborative culture

Match the selection criteria? Click the “APPLY” button now!

Alternatively, for a confidential discussion or to learn more about this opportunity, contact Andrew Mackin Brown at 08 6212 5524 // andrew.mackinbrown@talentinternational.com or Alice Tan at 08 6212 5598 // alice.tan@talentinternational.com.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Senior Front-End Developer - Contract - Perth

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

Front-End Web Developer (Contract)

We’re looking for a skilled and motivated Front-End Developer to join our clients team on an exciting new project. If you love combining creative design with clean, functional code, and enjoy seeing a product through from concept to completion, this role could be a great fit.

Key Responsibilities:

  • Develop responsive, user-facing features and interfaces
  • Translate UI/UX wireframes into high-quality code
  • Build reusable components and libraries for future use
  • Ensure the technical feasibility of designs
  • Optimise web applications for performance and scalability
  • Validate user inputs before submission to the back end
  • Collaborate with designers, developers, and stakeholders
  • Contribute to delivery timelines in an agile team environment
  • Support the broader project team as required
  • Apply continuous learning and problem-solving to improve outcomes

Skills & Experience:

  • 7+ years’ experience in front-end development
  • Proficient in Angular, Node.js, Typescript, jQuery
  • Strong understanding of HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and responsive design principles
  • Experience working with cross-browser compatibility challenges
  • Familiarity with asynchronous request handling (AJAX, partial page updates)
  • Knowledge of frameworks/libraries including Bootstrap 4 and AngularJS
  • Experience using SASS or other CSS preprocessors
  • Basic image editing (cropping/resizing)
  • Proficient in Git for version control
  • Experience with Web API and RESTful services
  • Knowledge of Webpack (advantageous)
  • Strong verbal communication and attention to detail

If you match the selection criteria and are interested in finding out more about the position, please click the “APPLY NOW” button below and attach your C.V (in word). For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further information please contact Kelly Williams on 08 6212 5503 or Alice Tan on 08 6212 5598

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Senior Test Analyst (Automation) - Contract - Perth

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

Senior Test Analyst – Mining Automation | Perth-Based

Our client, a leading mining company based in Perth, is seeking a Senior Test Analyst to join a cutting-edge, multi-disciplinary development team. This is an exciting opportunity for a self-motivated, independent, and technically curious individual to play a key role in delivering next-generation mine automation solutions.

This position will immerse you in both software and hardware environments, offering the chance to work across innovative autonomy projects where quality, safety, and performance are paramount.

About the Role:

As a Senior Test Analyst, you’ll be responsible for the planning, execution, and reporting of testing activities across technical and functional aspects of automation programs. You’ll collaborate closely with developers, product managers, and stakeholders to ensure high-quality outcomes across systems and platforms.

Key Responsibilities:

  • Lead testing and verification of technical and functional requirements for mining automation projects.
  • Create and maintain test artefacts such as test plans, test cases, test scripts, and test reports.
  • Collaborate with development and project teams to resolve defects and ensure traceability.
  • Identify, diagnose, and document system faults and errors in line with defined testing protocols.
  • Design and execute both manual and automated test cases for functional and regression testing.
  • Evaluate test outcomes and provide analysis, defect tracking, and test closure reporting.
  • Contribute to continuous improvement of QA processes and tools.
  • Occasionally travel to site to support on-ground testing and knowledge sharing activities.

What You’ll Bring:

  • 7+ years’ experience in a Software Testing or QA role, preferably in technical environments.
  • Strong background in client-side testing, microservice architectures, and hosted platforms.
  • Hands-on experience with test and defect management tools.
  • Test automation framework experience is highly regarded.
  • Sound understanding of modern development methodologies and quality-focused team practices.
  • Exposure to mining or safety-critical systems is desirable.

Skills and Attributes:

  • Excellent communication and stakeholder engagement skills.
  • Strong analytical and problem-solving capabilities.
  • Proficiency in Windows and Linux/Unix operating systems.
  • Experience with version control systems (e.g., Git) and working with formats like XML and JSON.
  • High attention to detail and ability to manage multiple priorities.

Qualifications:

  • ISTQB Foundation Level (CTFL) certification required.
  • Tertiary qualification in IT, Computer Science, or a related discipline is desirable.

If you match the selection criteria and are interested in finding out more about the position, please click the “APPLY NOW” button below and attach your C.V (in word). For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further information please contact Kate Reynolds on kate.reynolds@talentinternational.com or 0448 001 382

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Power Apps/Platform Developer

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

Overview:

We are looking for an experienced Power Apps/Platform Developer for a contract role with one of our clients based in the city.

Key responsibilities

  • Develop and implement scalable Model Driven Apps for enterprise use.
  • Configure reporting and custom pages within Power Apps to meet business needs.
  • Create and optimise Power Platform dataflows, including custom APIs.
  • Design Power Automate flows to automate processes and improve workflows.
  • Manage Microsoft Dataverse security roles, entities, and tables.
  • Integrate AIS and platforms like Boomi, creating custom connectors in Power Platform.
  • Use wireframe tools to design UI/UX for Power Platform apps.
  • Develop and maintain Azure Logic Apps for system integration.
  • Configure Azure DevOps Pipelines for continuous integration and deployment.
  • Contribute to Power Platform lifecycle management using Azure DevOps.
  • Work in a self-managed Agile team and participate in SCRUM processes for project delivery.

Experience required:

  • Strong experience in Power Platform development including Power Apps, Power Automate, and Power BI.
  • Proficiency in Model Driven Apps and custom page development.
  • Experience with Microsoft Dataverse and configuration of security roles, entities, and tables.
  • Hands-on experience in AIS integration and exposure to integration platforms such as Boomi.
  • Familiarity with wireframe tools and UI/UX design principles.
  • Expertise in developing and maintaining Azure Logic Apps.
  • Strong working knowledge of Azure DevOps and Pipelines for ALM.
  • Previous experience working in an Agile team using SCRUM methodology.

What’s on offer:

  • Immediate start contract for 3 months with likely extensions
  • Enterprise WA government client
  • Onsite role, 5 days per week. Flex start and finish times. (Onsite parking + close to major transport links)
  • Excellent day rates

Note: Only Perth based candidates will be considered due to the requirement to be onsite with the customer, 5 days per week.

If you have the right experience and are interested in finding out more about the position, please forward your updated CV to Alice Tan by clicking the “APPLY NOW” button.

For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further enquires please call Alice Tan at 08 6212 5598

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Electrical Test Engineer - Contract - Perth

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

We’re seeking an experienced Electrical Test Engineer to join a high-performing team working on the development and validation of cutting-edge electric vehicle charging systems. This is a 12-month contract starting June 2, based in Perth, with a leading mining company.

About the Role:

You will design and execute structured testing plans from scratch, working across hardware and software validation for electric vehicle charging systems. This includes hands-on testing, automation, defect tracking, technical reporting, and cross-functional collaboration with internal teams and vendors.

What You’ll Bring:

  • 10+ years’ experience in product or systems testing
  • Strong skills in electrical test scopes, data acquisition, and test automation
  • Background in EV charging systems and protocols
  • Proficiency with instrumentation, sensors, and signal processing
  • Experience with FAT/SAT, DVP&R, and testing in operational environments
  • Bachelor’s in Electrical Engineering or related discipline

This is a great opportunity to work on innovative technologies in a fast-paced and collaborative environment.

Apply now to join an industry leader driving future-focused projects.

Please only apply for the role if you match the criteria. For a full list of vacancies please visit www.talentinternational.com

For further queries please contact Rekha on 08 6212 5523.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Program Delivery Lead - IT Infrastructure

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

To support our clients’ continuous growth and demand across major Energy sector projects, we are on the lookout to hire an experienced Program Delivery Lead to form part of the core Digital Field Services team based in Perth. Reporting directly to the Digital Field Services Delivery Manager, you will be responsible and accountable for the resourcing and delivery of Critical and Operational Communications Infrastructure Programs of work across all operating assets.

This role is being offered as a 1-year Day rate contract assignment. You will be based in modern high-rise Perth CBD offices that fully support remote and flexible-hybrid Working from Home setups.

As a Delivery Lead, your core duties will include (but not limited to):

  • Provide leadership for the performance of contractors and service providers.
  • Provide technical direction to stakeholders on matters relating to the successful management, operation, and future of the delivery portfolio.
  • Develop and maintain relationship with strategic suppliers, who are integral to the service delivery as well as Strategy Technology Managers and IT leads.
  • Build and organise service provider workforces to produce deliverables that comply with company standards, work processes and specifications.
  • Safeguard the production environment by following all relevant IT Change Controls and Engineering Management of Change processes.

This role will suit someone with the following experience:

  • 5+ years’ experience leading teams and interacting with, and reporting to, senior business stakeholders.
  • 10+ years’ commercial experience in the Engineering and Technology industries, in particular across Operational Communications and IT services in the Energy sector.
  • Can be trusted to lead and build personnel and teams to work autonomously on projects of all sizes and complexity, as to ensure successful delivery.
  • Can build governance frameworks for service provider delivered projects and assure that requirements are met.
  • Aware of Process Safety Management processes and able to apply concepts firmly in the leadership of project changes.
  • Professional tertiary qualifications, recognised by Engineers Australia, in Electronic / Communications Engineering (or equivalent).
  • Recognised qualifications in Project Management.

If you have the relevant expertise and experience listed above and are interested in finding out more about this key role, please forward your updated CV to Huma Irshad by clicking the “APPLY NOW” button.

For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further enquires please call Huma on 0418 594 901 or email to huma.irshad@talentinternationa.com for further information.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Operational Technology (OT) - Security Engineer

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

To support our clients’ continuous growth and demand across major Energy sector projects, we are on the lookout to hire an experienced Operational Technology (OT) Engineer to help provide tactical cybersecurity support and assurance activities to keep frontline systems and assets secure from cyber-attacks. This position sits within the Digital Function of the Operational Technology (OT) BAU core team, reporting into the Senior Cybersecurity Lead.

This role is being offered as a 2-year Day rate contract assignment. You will be based in modern high-rise Perth CBD offices that fully support remote and flexible-hybrid Working from Home setups.

As an Operational Technology (OT) Engineer, your main duties and responsibilities will include (but not limited to):

  • Ensure Asset OT security is maintained at tolerable levels.
  • Informal Leadership of contractors and service providers delivering OT specific work to assets.
  • Responsible for delivery of OT Maintenance Program.
  • Responsible for ensuring OT System changes are secure and fit for purpose.
  • Responsible for supporting front line maintenance in break down OT incidents.
  • Responsible for supporting CSIRT in the event of a site cyber incident.
  • OT System changes are secure and fit fur purpose.
  • Responsible for ensuring technical aspects of maintenance and change align to security principals and processes.
  • Supporting the update and delivery of OT Security Platform components

We are seeking qualified individuals who have the following skills and experience:

  • 2+ years technical experience required in Control System Engineering / Operational Technology (OT) or Information Technology (IT).
  • Experience in maintenance delivery and operations.
  • Good understanding of cyber security and risk management within an Oil & Gas environment.
  • Business risk and stakeholder relationship management skills.
  • Informal leadership competencies.
  • CCNA and/or SANS GICSP certification (or working towards)
  • Engineering or IT Degree from an industry recognised University.

If you have the relevant expertise and experience listed above and are interested in finding out more about this key role, please forward your updated CV to Huma Irshad by clicking the “APPLY NOW” button.

For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further enquires please call Huma on 0418594901 or email to huma.irshad@talentinternationa.com for further information.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Procurement Officer

  • Australia
  • Perth
  • Contract
  • AU$50 - AU$65 per hour

Procurement Officer – Contract Administration (State Government)

We are seeking a highly skilled and motivated Procurement Officer with demonstrated experience in WA State Government procurement processes to join a strategic State Government Procurement team.

This is an exciting opportunity to step into a role where you can apply your knowledge of WA procurement frameworks and contribute to the success of a collaborative team.

Essential Skills & Experience

  • Demonstrated experience in WA State Government procurement is essential, including:
    • Familiarity with WA Procurement Rules and procurement methods such as:
      • Common Use Arrangements (CUAs)
      • Public Requests for Tender (RFTs)
      • Restricted Requests for Quote (RFQs)
    • Proven skills in Government contract administration (develop and manage low-risk contracts):
      • Managing contract extensions/variations
      • Publishing on Tenders WA
      • Maintaining contract registers
  • Demonstrated experience with procurement processes, including:
    • Developing Request documents
    • Running or assisting with evaluation panels
    • Writing evaluation reports and award documentation
  • Applicants must hold current and valid Australian work rights.

Desirable

  • Exposure to ICT procurement processes (not essential but highly regarded)
  • Experience assisting in the development of sourcing strategies and category spend analysis

Interested?

If you have the relevant essential expertise listed above and are interested in this key role, please submit your updated CV by clicking the “APPLY NOW” button.

Please note: Due to the high volume of applications, only shortlisted candidates will be contacted for the next stage of recruitment processes.

For a list of all vacant positions, please see our website www.talentinternational.com

For further enquires please call Jasmine on 08 6212 5526 or email jasmine.ho@talentinternational.com

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.