.NET Developer

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

.NET Developer

We are seeking an experienced Senior .NET Developer to join a large enterprise environment, working on the development, enhancement and modernisation of business-critical applications and services.

This is a hands-on engineering role focused on building scalable APIs, integrating existing platforms and delivering new capabilities within a complex enterprise technology landscape.

Key Responsibilities

  • Design, develop and enhance applications and APIs using C# and .NET.
  • Build and integrate RESTful APIs and microservices across existing enterprise platforms.
  • Develop cloud-native solutions leveraging AWS services.
  • Work with SQL Server for database integration, performance and optimisation.
  • Collaborate with architects, product owners and engineering teams to deliver business solutions.
  • Contribute to technical design, code reviews, troubleshooting and continuous improvement.

Skills & Experience

  • Strong commercial experience with C# / .NET development.
  • Proven experience designing and integrating REST APIs and microservices.
  • Hands-on experience with AWS cloud services.
  • Strong SQL Server development and optimisation skills.
  • Experience working within large, complex enterprise environments, particularly across established applications, service domains and API ecosystems.
  • Strong understanding of software engineering principles, design patterns and Agile delivery.
  • Excellent communication skills and ability to collaborate across technical and business teams.

The Opportunity

An opportunity to work within a mature enterprise technology environment, contributing to the evolution of established platforms while delivering modern, scalable solutions.

You’ll work alongside experienced engineering teams on complex integration challenges, platform enhancements and ongoing technology modernisation.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

AI Advisor / Consultant

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

Talent is recruiting an independent AI Advisor/Consultant for a leading insurance firm in Sydney. Our client is seeking an experienced AI practitioner who will bring fresh perspectives, encourage thoughtful discussion and translate complex AI developments into practical business insights.

This strategic advisory engagement focuses on executive guidance and capability building rather than technical implementation.

Why consider this opportunity?

  • Work with a leading insurance firm on important strategic priorities.

  • Collaborate directly with C-suite and other senior leaders within the business.

  • Share cross-industry insights through an independent advisory engagement.

  • Support lasting leadership capability and responsible AI adoption.

The opportunity

As an independent advisor and sounding board, you’ll work with the leadership team to identify AI opportunities and risks, consider organisational readiness and develop the capability to oversee AI initiatives effectively.

Your contribution will include:

  • Providing guidance on AI governance, accountability, responsible AI and model oversight.

  • Reviewing significant AI proposals and offering constructive feedback on strategic decisions.

  • Sharing insights into generative AI, agentic AI, autonomous systems and emerging regulatory developments.

  • Developing executive AI understanding through quarterly deep dives and selected leadership and strategy sessions.

Your experience

  • Senior-level experience supporting AI adoption and scaling, within financial services, insurance or another highly regulated industry.

  • Must be available for this Advisory/Consulting engagement until June 2027.

  • A sound understanding of responsible AI, governance frameworks, model risk and assurance.

  • Experience advising executives, boards or risk committees, including offering independent perspectives and constructive challenge.

  • Practical knowledge of how AI affects operating models, workforce design, business processes and controls.

  • An understanding of regulatory expectations relating to privacy, conduct, operational resilience and customer outcomes.

  • The ability to explain complex concepts clearly and develop practical recommendations.

If this role is of interest, please apply now. For a confidential discussion, please do not hesitate to contact Josh.costigan@talentinternational.com

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Solution Architect - Custody / Wealth Management

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • AU$1000 - AU$1200 per day

A leading global financial services organisation is undertaking a major multi-year platform migration and client onboarding program across its custody and asset servicing business.

They are seeking an experienced Solution Architect to play a key role in shaping high-level solutions for new clients, product offerings, regulatory initiatives and business change within a complex, highly governed technology environment.

You will join an established Solution Architecture team and work closely with clients, operations, business analysts, delivery teams and local and global architecture authorities. The role will focus on understanding client operating models, identifying capability gaps and defining practical solutions that fit within the organisation’s existing architecture.

To be successful in this role you will need:

  • Strong Solution Architecture experience within large, complex enterprise environments
  • Knowledge of custody, fund administration, asset management or financial services operations (front office experience within a wealth management provider will also be considered)
  • Experience translating business and client requirements into high-level solution designs
  • Strong business acumen, stakeholder management and workshop facilitation skills
  • Experience identifying capability gaps, impacted systems and delivery requirements
  • Understanding of middle and back-office functions such as unit pricing, tax reporting, registries or asset servicing
  • Ability to design within existing architecture and strict technology governance constraints
  • Experience presenting solutions to design authorities and senior stakeholders
  • A willingness to develop knowledge across new products, asset classes and operational domains

This is a Sydney-based role requiring three days per week in the office. A long-term contract and attractive daily rate are on offer for the right candidate.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Cyber Security Engineer

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • AU$900 - AU$1000 per day

A leading insurance provider is seeking a Senior Cyber Security Engineer to support and enhance the security technologies protecting its business worldwide.

This opportunity will suit a hands-on engineer with a strong infrastructure background who enjoys solving technical problems and keeping critical security services running effectively.

You’ll work across endpoint protection, data security, access management and monitoring technologies, taking ownership of upgrades, troubleshooting and ongoing improvements. Working closely with colleagues and technology partners globally, you’ll help strengthen platform performance and support the organisation’s changing security needs.

To be successful in this role you will need:

  • Tertiary qualifications and/or relevant industry certifications
  • Cyber security engineering experience gained within large, complex environments
  • Solid background in infrastructure engineering supporting enterprise systems with a strong understanding of Windows, Active Directory, Linux, networking and cloud environments
  • Proven experience administering security tools across areas such as EDR, DLP, PAM, MFA, antivirus and/or web proxies
  • Confidence investigating complex platform issues and restoring services within agreed timeframes
  • Experience keeping platforms reliable through upgrades, maintenance, monitoring and performance tuning
  • Clear communication skills and the ability to work effectively with technical teams, vendors and business stakeholders
  • A methodical approach to troubleshooting, strong attention to detail and an interest in evolving security technologies

They offer hybrid work with the role to be based from their office in Parramatta with an attractive daily rate on offer. To be considered for this exciting opportunity, please apply online now!

For over 30 years Talent has been redefining the contracting experience with industry leading support, exclusive contractor benefits & a world-class digital platform ENGAGE to access it all. Apply today to see how we can elevate your career

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Senior MLOps Engineer

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • Negotiable
  • Contract: Initial contract of up to 12 months, with extensions.
  • Location: Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney. Initial 6 weeks onsite, with hybrid working arrangements potentially available thereafter.
  • Security Clearance: Must have the ability to obtain a Baseline security clearance.
  • Key Technologies: Python, SQL, Spark/PySpark, Kubernetes, Red Hat OpenShift AI, CI/CD, MLflow/Kubeflow and enterprise data platforms.

We are currently seeking an experienced Senior MLOps Engineer to support a major Federal Government organisation in developing and operationalising enterprise-scale artificial intelligence and machine learning capabilities. This is an opportunity to work on complex, high-impact technology initiatives, building the platforms, automation and processes that enable machine learning models to be securely deployed, monitored and maintained in production environments.

Your duties will include:

  • Design, develop and maintain automated MLOps pipelines supporting machine learning model development, testing, deployment, monitoring and retraining.
  • Build and optimise batch and real-time data pipelines to support enterprise machine learning and analytics workloads.
  • Implement and manage containerised machine learning environments using Kubernetes, preferably Red Hat OpenShift AI.
  • Collaborate with data scientists, software engineers and business stakeholders to transition machine learning models into reliable production solutions.
  • Establish automated testing, release management and deployment processes, ensuring appropriate security, governance and rollback capabilities.
  • Implement model monitoring, experiment tracking and version control to improve the reliability, performance and maintainability of machine learning solutions.
  • Support responsible AI practices, including privacy, security, compliance and ongoing improvements to MLOps engineering standards.

Skills and Experience we are looking for:

  • Demonstrated experience in AI/ML engineering, including hands-on experience deploying and supporting machine learning solutions in production environments.

  • Strong programming and data engineering skills using Python, SQL and Spark/PySpark, including experience developing batch and streaming data pipelines.

  • Practical experience with MLOps frameworks such as MLflow, Kubeflow or equivalent technologies for experiment tracking, model versioning and monitoring.
  • Experience with Kubernetes, containerisation and Linux, ideally including Red Hat OpenShift AI and managing compute resources for machine learning workloads.
  • Strong understanding of CI/CD, Git, infrastructure automation and DevSecOps, including automated testing, deployment orchestration and secure release management.
  • Experience working with enterprise data platforms, relational databases, distributed storage and data lake technologies such as Hadoop, Hive, Impala and Kafka. Experience with Cloudera Data Platform would be highly regarded.
  • Demonstrated ability to lead technical delivery, troubleshoot complex production issues and communicate effectively with multidisciplinary teams. Relevant tertiary qualifications in computer science, mathematics, statistics or a related discipline will be highly regarded.

Experience working with on-premises machine learning infrastructure is particularly relevant, with potential opportunities to support future transitions to AWS or Microsoft Azure cloud environments.

Application Process: If you would like to apply, please contact Vamshi on email vamshi.krishna@talentinternational.com

For over 30 years Talent has been redefining the contracting experience with industry leading support, exclusive contractor benefits & a world-class digital platform ENGAGE to access it all. Apply today to see how we can elevate your career

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Change Manager - Communications & Engagement

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • Negotiable

Change Manager – Communications & Engagement

Initial Contract through to 30 June 2027

Kensington Location – Hybrid

We are seeking an experienced Organisational Change Manager with strong communications and stakeholder engagement skills to support a major transformation program.

The program will introduce new processes, governance frameworks and technology to strengthen compliance, risk management and oversight of external partnerships and supplier arrangements.

About the role

You will help staff across faculties and business divisions understand, prepare for and adopt new ways of working through clear communications and targeted engagement.

Key responsibilities

  • Develop and deliver change communications and engagement strategies aligned with program objectives.
  • Design and facilitate stakeholder workshops, reference groups and engagement activities.
  • Create clear, audience-specific communications across multiple channels.
  • Partner with business leaders, subject matter experts and program teams to support readiness and adoption.
  • Monitor engagement effectiveness and refine activities based on feedback.

About you

  • Extensive organisational change management experience within complex transformation programs.
  • Demonstrated experience delivering communications campaigns and stakeholder engagement plans.
  • Excellent writing skills, with the ability to translate complex concepts into clear, practical messages.
  • Strong facilitation, stakeholder management and consulting skills.
  • Ability to manage competing priorities in a fast-paced environment.
  • Higher education experience would be highly regarded.

Apply with your CV by Friday, 16 October 2026. Candidates available to start promptly are encouraged to apply as soon as possible.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

EL2 Senior Enterprise Workforce Planning Specialist

  • Australia
  • Parramatta
  • Contract
  • Up to AU$754.20 per day

Talent International is currently recruiting for an EL2 Senior Enterprise Workforce Planning Specialist to work for one of our Federal Government clients at any of the NDIA’s office locations in NSW. The position is a 12 months contract with the possibility of extension. The role pays $754.20 per day + Super.

7.6 hours per day and 38 hours per week

About the role

You will lead enterprise workforce planning, bringing together workforce, financial and operational evidence to inform strategic decisions. This role involves developing workforce planning frameworks, evaluating scenarios and providing clear advice to senior leaders on workforce priorities, risks and recommended actions.

Key responsibilities

  • Lead the development and operation of the organisation’s enterprise workforce planning methodology, evidence register and monthly integration cycle.
  • Integrate workforce demand, supply, workforce mix, cost and funding evidence to establish a consolidated enterprise workforce position, supported by the Workforce Data Analyst/Specialist.
  • Develop and evaluate defensible workforce scenarios, clearly outlining assumptions, impacts, risks and trade-offs for senior leaders.
  • Prepare and present monthly executive position papers and supporting advice, highlighting key findings, decisions required and recommended actions.
  • Provide authoritative workforce planning advice and lead stakeholder engagement to resolve issues and agree enterprise workforce positions.
  • Establish and maintain governance for workforce planning assumptions, evidence, decisions, dependencies and actions to support transparency and accountability.

About you

You will bring demonstrated skills and experience in:

  • Enterprise workforce planning and workforce strategy.
  • Scenario modelling and workforce demand and supply analysis.
  • Interpreting workforce and financial data to support evidence-based decisions.
  • Executive reporting and presenting clear, actionable advice to senior leaders.
  • Engaging stakeholders and resolving complex workforce planning issues.
  • Developing methodologies and establishing workforce planning frameworks and governance.

Desirable experience

  • Working within large, complex organisations.
  • Public sector workforce planning and strategic workforce management.
  • Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook (MYEFO) or budget-related workforce analysis.
  • Operating model design, workforce allocation and governance.
  • Preparing executive briefings.
  • Integrating workforce, finance and operational datasets.

If you are interested in this role, please APPLY NOW by submitting your resume in MS Word Format. For further information, you may contact Uvez Ahmed on 0480 806 154 / uvez.ahmed@talentinternational.com for a confidential discussion.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

EL1 Workforce Data Analyst

  • Australia
  • Parramatta
  • Contract
  • Up to AU$602.55 per day

Talent International is currently recruiting for an EL1 Workforce Data Analyst to work for one of our Federal Government clients at any of the NDIA’s office locations in NSW. The position is a 12 months contract with the possibility of extension. The role pays $602.55 per day + Super.

7.6 hours per day and 38 hours per week

About the role

You will provide workforce analytics and reporting to support enterprise workforce planning. Bringing together workforce, financial and operational data, you will identify trends, improve data quality and support scenario modelling to inform strategic decisions.

Key responsibilities

  • Manage the collection, validation and reconciliation of workforce, financial and operational data for the enterprise workforce planning cycle.
  • Maintain workforce planning datasets, data definitions, source mappings, business rules and assumptions to ensure consistent and traceable analysis.
  • Analyse workforce demand, supply, vacancies, recruitment, workforce movements, labour hire, contractors, partners and costs to identify trends, gaps and emerging pressures.
  • Investigate data discrepancies and quality issues, collaborating with business areas to resolve them and document limitations and confidence levels.
  • Produce reports, visualisations and analytical summaries for monthly enterprise workforce planning position papers.
  • Support the Senior Enterprise Workforce Planning Specialist to develop and test workforce scenarios, assess impacts and document methods and outcomes.
  • Collaborate with Finance, People and Culture, operational teams and data owners to validate findings and meet planning deadlines.

About you

You will bring demonstrated skills and experience in:

  • Workforce analytics, including workforce and financial data analysis.
  • Data cleansing, validation and reconciliation.
  • Reporting, visualisation and the development of repeatable reporting products.
  • Scenario modelling and the management of assumptions.
  • Trend analysis to identify workforce gaps, risks and pressures.

Desirable experience

  • Working within large, complex organisations.
  • Public sector workforce planning and strategic workforce management.
  • Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook (MYEFO) or budget-related workforce analysis.
  • Operating model design, workforce allocation and governance.
  • Preparing executive briefings.
  • Integrating workforce, finance and operational datasets.

If you are interested in this role, please APPLY NOW by submitting your resume in MS Word Format. For further information, you may contact Uvez Ahmed on 0480 806 154 / uvez.ahmed@talentinternational.com for a confidential discussion.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Customer Service Agent

  • Australia
  • Parramatta
  • Contract
  • Up to AU$37.50 per hour

Talent International is currently recruiting multiple Customer Service Agent to work for the NSW Government , based in Parramatta. This position is a 6-month contract with a view to be extended, and the role pays $37.50 per hour + Super.

7.5 hours a day / 37.5 hours a week

Flexible/Hybrid working options available 

About the Role

The program delivers crisis payments and energy support worth millions of dollars annually.

In this role, you will:

  • Assess customer eligibility for government assistance programs
  • Communicate with customers via phone and email
  • Liaise with energy retailers to coordinate support for customers
  • Provide clear, accurate and empathetic customer service
  • Work within established frameworks to make eligibility decisions
  • Meet KPIs in a fast-paced, high-volume environment

About You

We are looking for candidates who have:

  • Experience in high-volume contact centre or customer service environments
  • Strong communication skills (written and verbal)
  • Ability to quickly learn and apply complex information
  • A proactive, adaptable and can-do attitude
  • High attention to detail and integrity in decision-making
  • Confidence working with vulnerable or distressed customers

If you are interested in this role, please APPLY NOW by submitting your resume in MS Word Format. For further information, you may contact Uvez Ahmed on 0480 806 154 / uvez.ahmed@talentinternational.com for a confidential discussion.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Data Centre Technician

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • AU$350 - AU$390 per day

Data Centre Support Engineers | 15 Positions | Sydney

We’re recruiting 15 Data Centre Support Engineers to join a leading Global technology organisation’s Sydney data centre operations. This is an opportunity to develop your technical skills in a hands-on environment, supporting server, network and AI/machine learning infrastructure.

These are initial six-month contracts, with the intention of converting successful performers to permanent employment, subject to performance and business requirements.

The role

  • Check racks and servers and investigate equipment that is offline.

  • Troubleshoot hardware issues and replace components.

  • Restart equipment where instructed, following documented procedures.

  • Respond to, prioritise and resolve support tickets.

  • Support basic networking troubleshooting and escalate issues where required.

  • Use documented instructions and AI-assisted tools to guide troubleshooting.

  • Follow safety and security procedures and communicate effectively with the team.

About you

  • Approximately 1-3 years of relevant technical support experience.

  • At least 1 year of computer hardware troubleshooting and repair experience.

  • At least 1 year of computer networking experience.

  • An associate degree in IT or computer science.

  • Practical experience responding to and resolving support tickets.

  • Strong attention to detail and the ability to follow processes accurately.

  • Clear communication skills and a calm approach to problem-solving.

  • Data centre experience is preferred.

Contract and permanent opportunity

  • Initial six-month contract.

  • Indicative contract rates of $390 per day + super, subject to agreement.

  • Candidates must be comfortable with the permanent salary before being submitted. Conversion is not guaranteed.

Location and roster

These are fully onsite roles across Sydney’s Bankstown and Western Sydney areas. Exact site details will be provided during onboarding.

The operation runs 24/7, including nights and weekends, generally on a four-on, four-off roster. The supplied rotation includes:

  • Two blocks of four day shifts, 7am-7pm.

  • Two blocks of four night shifts, 7pm-7am.

  • Two blocks of four cover shifts, 7am-3:30pm.

  • Four days off after every block.

Additional requirements

  • A valid driver’s licence and your own vehicle.

  • Ability to safely undertake physical tasks, including lifting equipment, bending, reaching and using ladders.

  • Completion of work-rights and background checks.

  • Compliance with site security and safety requirements, including wearing composite-toe, metal-free safety shoes.

Recruitment process and start date

The process includes technical screening followed by one or two client interviews covering technical knowledge and behavioural examples.

Apply now with your CV to be considered.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

Change Analyst // Contract

  • Australia
  • Sydney
  • Contract
  • AU$800 - AU$900 per day

Change Analyst | Higher Education | Contract

Initial contract until June 2027, with potential for extension

Talent International is partnering with one of Australia’s leading universities to recruit an experienced Change Analyst to support a significant organisational transformation program.

The program focuses on improving how the organisation manages third-party arrangements, introducing new processes, systems and governance frameworks to strengthen compliance, risk management and operational oversight.

Working closely with stakeholders across the organisation, you’ll support change management activities, stakeholder engagement and business readiness to ensure the successful adoption of new ways of working.

Key Responsibilities

  • Conduct change impact assessments and business readiness activities.

  • Undertake stakeholder analysis and support engagement planning.

  • Develop change management plans, communications and supporting materials.

  • Identify change-related risks and recommend mitigation strategies.

  • Prepare progress reports and updates for program stakeholders and governance forums.

  • Work with stakeholders to document current and future state processes and requirements.

  • Support the broader adoption of new systems, processes and governance frameworks.

About You

To be successful in this role, you will have:

  • Demonstrated experience supporting organisational change and transformation initiatives.

  • Familiarity with change management methodologies such as Prosci/ADKAR.

  • Experience conducting change impact assessments and business readiness activities.

  • Strong stakeholder engagement and communication skills.

  • Experience preparing change documentation, reports and stakeholder materials.

  • Strong analytical, problem-solving and documentation capabilities.

  • Ability to manage competing priorities and work both independently and collaboratively.

What’s on Offer

  • Initial contract until June 2027, with potential for extension.

  • Opportunity to contribute to a major university-wide transformation initiative.

  • Work closely with stakeholders across multiple business areas.

  • Support meaningful organisational change and the adoption of improved processes and technology.

How to Apply

If you’re an experienced Change Analyst looking for your next contract opportunity, we’d love to hear from you.

Apply now or reach out to Talent International for a confidential discussion.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.

EL1 Assistant Director Quality

  • Australia
  • Parramatta
  • Contract
  • Up to AU$602.55 per day

Talent International is currently recruiting for an EL1 Assistant Director Quality to work for one of our Federal Government clients at any of the client’s office locations in NSW. The position is a 12 month contract with the possibility of extension. The role pays $602.55 per day + Super.

7.6 hours per day and 38 hours per week

This opportunity suits an experienced leader with strong people management skills, quality assurance expertise and the ability to drive continuous improvement.

About the role

You will oversee the team’s audit program, manage performance and contribute to strategic planning to improve decision-making quality and manage plan sustainability risks.

Your responsibilities will include:

  • Providing high-level technical, policy and operational advice on quality assurance and quality control for early childhood planning and decision-making.
  • Managing team performance, priorities and workflows to meet branch targets and quality outcomes.
  • Leading, coaching and mentoring team members to strengthen technical knowledge and decision-making capability.
  • Supporting national quality reporting by maintaining data collection systems and analysing performance, trends, business impacts and risks.
  • Identifying and leading business improvements, supported by effective change management strategies.
  • Building and managing stakeholder relationships, representing the branch and communicating early childhood planning and quality requirements.

About you

To be successful, you will bring:

  • Proven leadership and people management experience, including managing direct reports, setting priorities and overseeing workflows.
  • Strong ability to interpret and apply legislation, policies, procedures and standards.
  • Experience providing detailed technical, professional, policy and operational advice on complex matters.
  • Strong coaching and mentoring skills to improve staff capability and decision-making.
  • Proficiency in Excel and strong data analysis skills to support reporting and informed decisions.

Experience or qualifications in early childhood, disability or allied health will be highly regarded. Public service experience is also desirable.

If you are interested in this role, please APPLY NOW by submitting your resume in MS Word Format. For further information, you may contact Uvez Ahmed on 0480 806 154 / uvez.ahmed@talentinternational.com for a confidential discussion.

Apply now

Submit your details and attach your resume below. Hint: make sure all relevant experience is included in your CV and keep your message to the hiring team short and sweet - 2000 characters or less is perfect.